John Curley – producer, engineer, co-founder and the bass-player of The Afghan Whigs. Took time out to do this interview. John tells us about his first work as a musician and about crossing over from being a musician to producer, about “In Spades” and first groundbreaking records of Afghan Whigs. About music scenel scene in Cincinnati. Hope you’d enjoy!
Punk Globe: I’ve always been crediting you as bass-player with very special style. It’s very deep and energetic, very expressive. But you are also photographer. You did killer photos for The Cincinnati Enquirer. So can you say that at the very-very beginning playing bass was kind of hobby?
John: I started playing bass and photography around the same time. When I was about 15 years old. I was inspired to do both because of The Who record – “Quadrophenia”. “Quadrophenia” has amazing bass-parts on it as well as most of The Who records. But it also has a book of photography with it, inside of double LP. With beautiful black and white photographs that really told the story of the record. I spent many hours looking to these pictures while I was listening to the record. Both had a huge influences on me. But I guess I didn’t think about playing music. I thought the chances of doing that for a living were pretty slim. So I went to a newspaper photography as a profession.
Punk Globe: Do you feel being a musician helped you get work as a photographer?
John: It definitely came…not at the very beginning, but after we’ve been playing for a few years. When it became impossible to balance the two. This was probably around the time that we began to write the songs for “Congregation”. Probably, the early 1990’s.
Punk Globe: Listening to your first records, I can’t help but notice the big stylistic gap between “Big Top Halloween” and “Up In It”. These releases are separated by a few years. But they’re completely different in their sound! How can you describe the very first years of your creativity and the transformation of the band from “Top Halloween” to “Up In It” ?
John: I think the biggest thing would be Greg’s confidence and growth as a songwriter. Between those two records. “Up On It” and our songs on it, that we wrote more or less together, practicing several times a week. By the time we got “Up On It”, it was primarily Greg writing a songs. Instead of Rick and myself. We were contributing members at that point.
Punk Globe: Could you please tell me a little bit about music scene in Cincinnati, especially how it influenced you, back then ?
John: I was probably more influences growing up in Washington, DC. I lived outside DC in Maryland, where I went to high school and junior high school. And growing up in that area, I had a lot of local music and underground ratio-stations to listen to. By the time I moved to Cincinnati, I kind of knew what I liked and the music that I was listening to, and the music Greg and Rick had been listening to. A lot of that overlapped. But we also brought different things as we became friends and started playing music together. The music scene in Cincinnati at that time was very much a “bar-band” scene. It was bar-bands playing mostly cover songs and stuff like that. And there were only a few bars where original songs could be played. There was where we and most of our friends played. There was a great club – just across the river Kentucky called “The Jockey” club. It had great punk-bands. And early new-wave bands and early alternative bands. Anybody that came through Cincinnati or was on tour at that time but was outside of mainstream probably played in “The Jockey” club. R.E.M. played there, Black Flag would play there, The Dead Kennedys…It was a legendary place. So we saw a lot of cool music there. Actually, the first Afghan Whigs gig was there too.
Punk Globe: Tell the readers about that show?
John: We opened for a friends of ours, who had a band. And we probably played there 7 or 8 songs that we had at that point. Couple of covers. Probably stuff that was on “Big Top Halloween”. I don’t remember much about it, beyond that.
Punk Globe: With the release of “Up In It”, people started referring Afghan Whigs as “grunge”\”alternative” band. Did you personally feel the same?
John: In some ways, yeah! I don’t think that we were a grunge band. Or it felt like we were a part of that scene. Honestly, if there’s a word that describes us it’s probably “outsider”. We were outsiders when we came to Seattle, we were outsiders in our city – because, we weren’t playing most of the bands were playing at that time. At the time we first went on Sub Pop releasing “I am The Sticks” single – later “Up In It” record. At that point we were the first band outside the Seattle they decided to put out a full length record of. And then, we got loved in with the whole grunge movement although we never really were that kind of a band. Or felt like we were a part of that musical genre. Later, when “Nevermind” came out and a lot of attention was focused on Sub Pop as the place where Nirvana come from, that was when the word “alternative” began to be widely used. At the beginning of that, it makes sense because it was a sort of alternative to mainstream music. Which was a huge shift in landscape of popular music when it happened. But thinking about the music that’s called “alternative” now – I don’t really get how that evolved. That seems kind of…Like light metal to me.
Punk Globe: Greg once said that with The Afghan Whigs you’ve always been doing what the band felt like doing. And quite often, you used to combine very different elements in your music. Like with “Congregation”, for example. With this record you united classical rock-music and African-American flavor. Is it hard for you to find a style, that would ideally come to the place?
John: No. I think “Congregation” was kind of the place we’d already really found ourselves as a band. Everybody was confident in their musicianship. Greg was becoming a more confident songwriter, lyricist and guitar-player. And it was in a lot of ways bringing together the influences of the four original members. Which…is quite diverse. There’s a lot of commonality. But there’s a lot of…variation as well. “Congregation” was the first record where I really felt that we needed a record we wanted to make. We felt comfortable in a studio, we felt comfortable in what we were doing. We’ve been playing a lot. So we were used to playing together and started to develop that unspoken communication that’s happens when you play with people a lot. In some ways, esthetically, I’d say that that’s really was the first Afghan Whigs’ record.
Punk Globe: When you start work on something, what are the creative styles were you’re following? Is there’s always a basic idea of each record and song or you just literary let it go becoming something ?
John: I think all of that place into it. I’m not really a songwriter. From perspective of a bass-player, I try to do what’s best for the song to try and find the way to pull together the melodic elements and rhythmic elements and elements support the vocal, stay out of the way of the vocal. I think I can speak for everyone saying that we try to make music that we would like. I think that’s first for performing or writing or doing everything. The first thing that happens – we need to be inspired by the things we hear and what we’re doing.
Punk Globe: “Gentlemen” was a turning point for you. For most of the reasons. After your run with Sub Pop you got the band signed with major-label. Before that, on "Uptown Avondale” Greg and you already got to a certain point where you took producers’ and engineering duties. Could you tell me, a little bit about your work on ‘Gentlemen”, especially how important was this record for you becoming a producer\engineer?
John: Well, we’d worked with an outside producer on ‘Congregation” and it didn’t go very well. I think, that was the point when we decided that after it we’d do everything by ourselves. We were the best people for the job. It’s interesting. At the beginning of “Gentlemen”, Greg and I went kind of together. But over the course of the record he really, kind of grew into the role of a producer. And stepped to forefront where he’d been ever since in terms of making Afghan Whigs records. For me – I had my own recording studio in Cincinnati at that time. And “Gentlemen” was a great education for me, to be able to watch how Greg was producing. And how songwriter and a creative person interacted with the recording studio-environment. I’d been watching Jeff Powell who was an engineer at that record. And I learnt SO much from just watching him. I was in a really good place of my own development, so I learnt a lot just by watching. I understood about the process and what was going on. So I would just watch and observe it. And Jeff has been, to this day just a wonderful mentor, happy to answer questions or talk about stuff. To a large degree I kind of base the way I work in a studio on how I saw him working.
Punk Globe: The same year you produced “Grim” record by Ass Ponys. What was it like going from being musician to being engineer and producer ?
John: No, it was great! Because, I got to play, which was really fun. And I got to break from playing to recording. Which was really fun. I felt like a two things balanced with each other well. And each one kept the other one fresh. I think, engineers and producers that’s also musicians have a great perspective on process. Because, you’ve been on both sides of the glass. And you can understand what the other person is going through. I think, when the band in struggling through recording process…I’ve been there too! So I try to help them to get passed that. So no, it wasn’t hard. It was just a really great mix of being able to do both these things.
Punk Globe: When you work on production side of the music with your band or project, I guess it seems like a continuation of certain creative process. So could you please tell me, it what way your work and your objectives differ, when you work with other artists?
John: I think it depends on a group. And I thought about this before! But my production style is kind of related…probably my photography style. It’s like a documentary. I try just tell the story that’s there, in front of me. Without injecting too much of myself into it. I feel like the band knows what they want to sound like. And it’s my goal to help everyone to bring that to life in a way they feel good about it.
Punk Globe: There are some producers who are really keen to record everything live. A good example is Nick Lowe and the way he did record the first Damned’ album. Do you feel the same?
John: Yeah, I think that’s true. For the most part. Because, my experience has been playing in a band, practicing, doing live-shows that’s what I know, that’s what I comfortable with. That’s what resonates with me. So typically that’s usually where it’s started. But, being producer it’s also important to know when something is not working. To know…maybe an overdub would be a better way to do this. Or not! There was a moment when we were recording one of the records by the band Wussy – formed by Chuck, the singer of the Ass Ponys. And I worked on a lot of their records as well. Chuck and Lisa Walker are the two primary songwriters and guitarists in a band. We were working on an album and we decided to overdub the guitars on a particular songs. They ended up wanted to overdub two guitars at the same time. Chuck went out to play his part, Lisa went out playing her part. It just wasn’t working, it sounded weird. It wasn’t coming together and didn’t have the vibe we all knew was supposed to be there. I suggested that they’d play in together. So we’d go out with them playing together and record everything at the same time. And that was the key to it! And I realize that there were all these unconscious things. The way the other person moves when you’re playing, the whole other subconscious side to what was going on besides music. And they needed to know it to play their parts right. And that was like a huge light ball going on for me. In terms of not to try to mess with the process too much. And have people play live whatever possible. Like to stick to the vibe. Like in terms of documentary – stay true to the story.
Punk Globe: In 2014, The Afghan Whigs returned with your new studio album – “Do To The Beast”. First record of yours since 1998. Then, in 2017 you released “In Spades”. So how it was for you, to go back to record after a hiatus?
John: It was great! I think, I was able to have…It’s very rare in life, to have a second chance to do something. In a time I had between I ended tour for 1965, which was 1999, I guess…And then we got together! I had a lot of time to play in other bands, to record a lot of other music. To develop my friendship with Greg outside of the band. We were friends first and then we’ve been working together. And I think the friendship changed. Maybe it was strained during some of that. So it was nice to just…be friends, outside of music. And I have two daughters. My wife and I have two daughters. So I have an experience of parenthood and the patience one hopefully learns from that experience…Yeah, I it was just great! Just like: “Hey! Wouldn’t it be great to get back to high school knowing everything you know ?!” and in a way I felt like I got to do that. I got to go back to band that had been such a huge part of my life. And do it again appreciating all the good stuff. Without focusing on more difficult parts. And it was great! I consider myself extremely fortunate that I have that experience. And I’m still having it!
Punk Globe: For many years you worked at Ultrasuede studios. When you first decided to move to studio-work, was it hard for you to get from big stages to studio-work ?
John: No, not really! I think I was really kind of burned out on a travel and everything, when the Whigs broke up in 2000. And I think I needed a few years, to kind of sort that out and get away from it. And begin to appreciate the parts of it, that were really special. So the studio is great, cause I get to be a part of creative process, I get to watch band performing. And then I’m done with it. So it’s nice to get in both sides, I guess. Instead of being all the way… I mean, everything is great. But at that time, I was ready to focus on something different. And it was really nice that I was able to do that. My studio and I stay in music but did a different thing for a while. And I played in bands. Some local bands in Cincinnati. So I was playing. I just wasn’t touring and doing in on level The Afghan Whigs did it.
Ultrasuede was a studio where I was for 25 years unfortunately closed last year. The building got sold and there was a chance of ownership and I had to leave. I’m not working at place called “The Lodge” which is a really cool studio, just across the river Dayton, Kentucky. That’s a big, old Masonic temple. That’s where I’m working these days!
Punk Globe: In 2010 you joined the Cincinnati band Fists Of Love recording a few tracks on their self-titled album. Then, you continued on “I Sang My Heart Out To A Snake Once”. You are currently working on a new record, that will be released in the spring of 2020. Could you please tell me a little bit about this band and what we should expect from your coming album ?
John: Sure! In 2003 I formed a band with two friends called The Staggering Statistics, we put out two EP’s and two full-length records between 2003 and maybe 2006-2007. We opened for The Twilight Singers a couple of times when they came to Cincinnati. And the guitar-player and singer songwriter in The Staggering Statistics – Austin Brown, he lives in Berlin now. He also was a recording engineer and producer on those records. Our drummer – Joe Klug is now the drummer in Wussy, also the drummer in my current band – The Plastic Ants. So there’s a lot of friends working together doing different stuff. When The Staggering Statistics broke up I got together with some friends – they’d already had a band and had a bass-player. So I joined up with those guys – “Fists of Love”. I helped him finish the record they were working on. And then we made a record together. And then The Whigs got together. So I left “Fists Of Love”. In the mean time I was playing music with my friend – Robert Cherry. He was an editor at “Alternative Press” – Cleveland based rock-magazine. Eventually he got to Cincinnati and we started working together. At first, I was just recording his stuff. But later on, we decided to play together. We formed a band with a couple of guys from Canada, that he knew. I need to say that the distance between Toronto and Cincinnati prevented regular practicing and shows. But we managed to do a few records together and play some shows together. After the first Whigs’ reunion tour Rob and I had talked about making another records and putting a band here with friends from Cincinnati. So we got a friend - on piano and keyboards, we got Joe Klug from The Staggering Statistics and Wussy on board. And later we got a cello player and another friend – Robby Writer, who’s a musician here in town.
Punk Globe: What’s the difference between Fists of Love and the project you just mentioned – Plastic Ants?
John: Em…Plastic Ants is more…We talked about making a band like Zombies. That has cool arrangements with vocals and piano and stuff like that. Rob, Guy, Robbie and Darryl can all sing – which is great. We tried different kinds of songs. Maybe more dynamic. With different arrangements you won’t find a typical rock-song. Like I said – The Zombies were like inspiration. We didn’t see anything like The Zombies, but it was the thing that inspired us when we put the band together. So that band had quiet songs with piano and cello. Also, rock-songs and poppy songs.
Punk Globe: As a guy who started your career in Cincinnati and have been living there for years, observing the changes of local scene, Tell us your thoughts?
John: Cincinnati is unique because it’s sort of just far enough of behalf. You can live here doing your own thing without a lot of pressure to follow the trends. The cost of living here is very low, so it’s easy to live well on a job that offers you the flexibility to go and play shows, to tour and stuff like that. There’s a lot of places to practice. There’s a fair amount of places to play. So it’s really a good place to develop your art and become a band. Unfortunately, once you get to a certain point – you’d really need to get in a van and leave Cincinnati and take everything on a next level. Because, it’s typically small city. There are a number of places to play but the potential size of the audience is pretty small. So a lot of bands make a mistake of just playing off in Cincinnati. It’s great for a while but then, eventually it comes to time when people just see you too many times and they’re not interested anymore. That was one of fortunate things that happened to us. We me the guy named Scotty Calter, early on. And Scotty he’s been a tour manager for many years now. He was our first manager and booking agent. He helped us to get shows outside of town. So almost from the beginning we have a wider view of what we wanted to do. And I think that’s still true, of being a band here.
Punk Globe: Are there any cool local bands that you’d recommend our readers to listen to?
John: There’s a band called Vacation, that’s really good! It’s kind of like punk-rock-poppy band. They’d probably get mad for me calling them “pop-punk”. But they right great hooks! Super energetic! Their guitar player worked with me in Ultrasuede for a while. He’s an engineer and producer here in town. He’s actually in another band called Swim Team. Both these bands are really good. There’s a band called Carriers, I worked with. They just released an album we’d done a couple of years ago. But I’m playing bass on as well as having engineered it. And the drummer from The National [Bryan Devendorf] is another half of rhythm section. That was cool project. These guys are cool band!
There’s another band called This Pine Box, I worked with. And they do…kind of…It reminds me like a good 70’s songwriter-rock. Like The Eagles or Bread or America. They don’t sound like anything of these bands. But that’s what they remind me with their songwriting and instrumentation.
The Lodge Studio in Dayton, KY: http://www.thelodgeky.com/recording
