A CANDID INTERVIEW WITH DENNIS WHITE
I
recently had a chance to ask Dennis White a few questions about the
upcoming UPCHUCK CD and the gala event he is throwing in Seattle at
The The Little Red Studio located at 750 Harrison Street in Seattle
on Saturday, September 27, 2008...Along with some background on
himself...I must admit I am amazed with all his adventures in the
music business and the scene in general...I think most notable is
working with the wonderful Del Rubio Triplets in the 80's...I can't
wait to read his book when he decides to write one..
PUNK
GLOBE:
Thanks so
much for the interview Dennis. Can you tell the readers about the
special show you are planning in Settle for the UPCHUCK CD Release
Party at The Little Red Studio in Seattle, Washington.
DENNIS:
On September 27th we're having a party to celebrate the release of
UPCHUCK: GONE BUT NOT FORGIVEN. It’s a collection of music Chuck
recorded with various bands between 1977 and 1990. About half of this
album is music that only a few people have ever heard. It's exciting
to finally have something on CD and digital, but it's even more
exciting that people will hear the direction Chuck’s music took in
the last couple of years of his life. There's also a brand new track
by Chuck's "current" band The Ex-Gay Ministers. It's a bit
hard to explain how it is that Chuck is creating music 17 years after
his death’ but it's happening. The-Ex-Gay Ministers are actually
some people that Chuck worked closely with over the years. They've
taken vocal tracks that Chuck had recorded and re-wrote and
re-arranged music under Chuck's "direction" It sounds kind
of hokey, but it's a serious deal and the music is great. Chuck never
got stuck in a rut, so it's good to see the probable trajectory his
career would have taken. In fact we are looking at it as the
trajectory Chuck’s career *is* taking. Chuck went from a teen-age
runaway punk to a Seattle icon who is still influencing people to
make records with him.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Can you give
us some background on yourself and you became involved with the
upcoming UPCHUCK CD?
DENNIS:
I grew up in a horrible Navy town so I ran away to furthest place I
could think of the minute I could get out of the house. That was
London. I was so totally in love with the whole Glam scene.
Like a lot of other glamsters I ended up being one of the first
generation of snotty young London punks. In 1979 my upper-class
turned punk boyfriend stole a bunch of money from his mom and we
decided to fly to Seattle for a couple of weeks until she got over
it. She never did, so I ended up staying. The first night we
were in Seattle we went to see The Pointed Sticks at the old
Washington Hall. I was sitting outside drinking when I started
talking to this guy Upchuck. He was dressed a bit more outrageously
than a typical punk and at first I thought he was really full of
himself. We got into some kind of argument. I had a pretty
straight-jacketed fake Marxist outlook and he thought that was all a
load of crap...which of course it was. But within a couple of days we
were good friends and I moved into his apartment and started paying
his rent. I didn’t mind a bit, because I’ve always been good at
scrounging up whatever it takes to survive and I didn’t mind
sharing everything. He could be manipulative, but there was never any
shadiness. His friends were happy to help him out because he was so
sincere and motivated about his career. If you loaned him money he
paid it back. If he asked you to give him money it wasn't so he could
lay around or get drunk. He wasn't a sponge, he was optimistic and
fearless. He was also pretty lovable.
I was always great friends
with Chuck and we shared a lot of the same crap growing up in
backward circumstances. We started being punk DJs and Chuck was
really responsible for the first really decent alternative live music
bar in Seattle. During the 1990’s we spent time living in the same
places and were on the same scene. I had gotten Chuck and The Fags to
come to New York City. I moved to LA right after Chuck first started
getting ill with AIDS, but we talked all the time and I’d fly him
down every once in awhile. When he finally got to the point that he
needed someone to take care of him he went to live with Annie
Mulcahey, who was a pretty well-known figure around Seattle. She
deserves more props than she was given for helping Chuck. But her
house was too small and it was too much for her to handle. So I moved
back to Seattle, rented a house and the three of us moved in
together. Annie and I took care of Chuck until he died. He had
recorded some incredible tracks at Bearsville Studio with Shlomo
Sonnenfeld. I was taking care of all of his business for the last
couple of years of his life and we agreed the recordings needed to
get shopped around. At any rate, he was just too ill, and I didn't
have time to spend time shopping an album make a living and take care
of him. But I promised him that I would find a way to get his music
out there. It really was his biggest wish. Almost a deathbed wish.
All of my drug and alcohol problems came to a head after Chuck
died, and there's no way I could have done a decent job getting his
music released at that time. After a few years I finally got cleaned
up and started putting my life back together. I always had the
promise I made to him in the back of my mind. One day last year I
realized I was in the perfect position to make good on my promise. I
owned the rights to his Bearsville tapes and his family appointed me
to control his "estate" which amounted to nothing more than
his intellectual property...music, lyrics, images, art work. As I
started putting the CD together I was able to call in some favors and
there were other people who approached me to offer whatever they
could to help the project along. I had the good fortune to have my
friends at Sub Pop Records come on board by helping set me up with
amazing digital distribution. Jon Poneman also offered to handle the
distribution of the actual CDs.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Chuck was
quite a pioneer in the Seattle punk scene? Was he good friends with
Tomato Du Plenty? I know that both The Screamers and The Lewd
originated in Seattle?
DENNIS:
Chuck’s dad had abandoned his mom, and his mother abandoned him, so
he ended up living with his grandfather who hated the fact Chuck was
gay from day one and never was closeted. Maybe his grandfather knew
Chuck was gay and started in on him even before Chuck got the message
to hide being gay so he rebelled. After his family had him locked up
for being gay, Chuck began running away from home. Eventually he
ended up in Seattle and got involved with Ze Whiz Kidz. They were
sort of a Seattle version of The Cockettes, but did mostly street
theater, and were a fair bit tamer.. A lot of the early Seattle punk
scene developed directly out of Ze Whiz Kidz. Tomata du Plenty and
Satz from the Lewd were both in Ze Whiz KIdz. There were a bunch of
the people who revolved around that scene went on to help create punk
all over the country and in the UK. Chuck's first band was called
Clone. It was really just him and a guy named Jeff Gossard. Jeff's a
cousin of Stone Gossard. Jeff had been in a band called the Knobs or
The Baby Knobs. Satz was in that band too. For some reason the band
didn't get along, so they broke up. Jeff Gossard was alot more
influenced by Queen and Bowie and early 70's Metal. He ended up
working with Chuck and Satz went on to do The Lewd. Of course
The Lewd and The Mentors were just as much Seattle bands as San
Francisco bands in the earliest days. A lot of the people that had
been there at the beginning are still there and fairly involved in
the scene. And a few have died. One of the best loved guys
was
Homer Spence who was older than the rest of us. He’d been a
professor at the UW, but they didn’t want him because he was too
much of a Marxist. So he quit teaching, became a cab driver
and
got involved with the weirdo fringe of punk rock. Later he was a
bartender and everyone knew him and really loved him. He
ended
up having a massive heart attack. Even though he wasn’t
really involved in music when he died, he was still an important
inspiration as a human. It was a real loss. By 1970 the scene
was established enough to support gigs and there were a couple of
hang-outs. But it was still small enough that practically everyone on
the punk scene knew each other, or at least recognized each other.
There was alot of cross-pollination going on and bands that were
taking different musical directions still hung out together. Some of
the best Seattle bands came out of that period. The Blackouts. Red
Dress. The Enemy. Chinas Comidas. None of them got bogged-down in any
formula and a lot of them went on to other bigger things. Bill
Reiflin and the Barkers went on to be Al Jorgensen’s band Ministry.
Today Reiflin plays drums for R.EM. Duff McKagen was a kid at the
time so he’d end up having to wait outside bars until whichever
band he was playing with went on stage. Then the bar would make him
leave again once the band was finished. Then there were the Portland
and Vancouver BC influences. Particularly Portland people like Chris
Newman and Toodie and Fred from Dead Moon. There's no doubt that all
of the successful bands that came out of the so-called Seattle
"grunge" scene owe a lot to those people. I think for the
most part they know that and have never denied it. But there's so
many people who think grunge was the peak of Seattle's music scene.
It was just part of a tradition that had been in place for
years.
It was also a lucky break brought about by the hard work of earlier
people like Susan Silver, Larry Reid, Mike Vraney, Jim Lightfoot and
Susan Silver who had been around the scene and worked their butts
off. Especially Susan.
PUNK
GLOBE:
You
eventually also moved to NYC also right?
DENNIS:
Yeah.
I went to New
York for a couple of years in the mid 80‘s.A lot of Seattle
musicians and artists were leaving town because they didn't feel they
could get any further in Seattle. LA was closer but NYC was where the
real stuff was happening. The Lower East Side was "the"
place to be. It was still cheap and hip and dangerous. I lived above
the Pyramid Club on Ave. A. Me, The Swedish Housewife who is pretty
well-known in Seattle, Tanya Ransom, a drag performer with his own
dance troupe, this kid named Boy Adrian who danced with Klaus Nomi,
and a bunch of others. Between drugs and AIDS I think only four us
who lived there are still alive. It was an old ballroom and people
were in and out of there all day and night. I remember Nico and her
son coming there and shooting up in the bathroom. They left puke and
blood all over the place and then Nico went downstairs to the Pyramid
to play her really broken-down harmonium singing "My Funny
Valentine" Both her and Chet Baker both did great versions of
that song when they were wasted.
PUNK
GLOBE:
After NYC did
you move back to Seattle?
DENNIS:
Only for awhile. In 1988 I ended up in Los Angeles working with an
indie label. I was also managing The Fibonaccis who still are one of
my favorite bands of all time. I worked with The Del Rubio Triplets
which was a wild ride! Three old ladies who've each had a mini-bottle
of gin calling you in the middle of the night to complain is a
bizarre experience. This guy J Randall Johnson made a bunch of money
writing a screenplay for a Penelope Spheeris film called "Dudes"
He'd also done some Meat Puppets videos and maybe The Minutemen. I
don’t remember for sure. He took the money he made and started a
label and I came to LA to run it. More like run it into the ground.
It was a fairly successful project, but our distributor went bankrupt
and left us and a lot of other windy labels holding the bag. Of
course all of them had to fold. This was at the time of The Cat House
and Hair Metal . It was the era of the biggest, most bloated bands
the world has ever seen. I got disgusted and when I our label closed
down I ended up back in Seattle.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Did you have
a hard time finding the music for the new Upchuck CD?
DENNIS:
It was a real archaeological expedition. The masters from Chuck’s
fist band, CLONE, had been destroyed long ago. Chuck had a
sugar-daddy put up the money for the band and the recording. At some
point they got into a big argument and the sugar-daddy threw the
tapes into the swimming pool. Fortunately the recording was pretty
high quality for a little band from Seattle. I knew that if I could
find an unplayed, well-kept vinyl single I might be able to re-master
it. It took months, but I was able to find a perfect single that one
of Chuck’s band mates, Jeff Gossard, had given to a relative as a
souvenir. We were able to lift both sides of the single, and after
Eking and mastering it sounds OK. It's not as dynamic as it could
have been, but then recording technology in the 1970's couldn't
capture all of what was happening in the first place.
Chuck had
done some brilliant stuff in New York with Shlomo Sonnenfeld. Their
band SUCH was more pop than Chuck’s earlier stuff, but it was
totally credible as far as I was concerned. I had mastered some of
the tracks to vinyl in the late 1980's with John Golden while he was
still in Hollywood. Originally it was to come out on the label I was
running, but it never happened. In the ensuing years John had moved
his operations to The Valley and the DATs we mastered from were lost.
Meanwhile Bearsville Studios in Upstate New York where SUCH had
recorded in had closed. The 2" masters of the a lot of the bands
that recorded there were either destroyed or were taken home by
studio employees. I spent a few very scary weeks trying to find the
masters. I was hoping that there would be another set of DATs or at
least a safety tape. Finally John Holbrook, who had produced and
mixed the tapes found the 2" masters in someone's attic. But the
original mixes were lost.. John Holbrook is a legend among the
technicians in the music business. When he was barely out of his
teens he had mastered some of the classic albums of the 60’s. Tommy
and Axis Bold as Love come to mind. He kindly offered to completely
digitize the tapes and totally re-mix the songs with 21st Century
technology. He did an incredible job. Then we went back and replaced
some of the 80's sounding drum machines. Michael Cozzi and Ben
Ireland of Sky Cries Mary did a great job updating those sounds. Ben
was the drummer in The Fags, so we really felt like we were keeping
everything "in the family" and being totally respectful of
the recordings and what doing what Chuck would have wanted.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Did you have
to transfer any of the music from tape to CD?
DENNIS:
Most
of what we
included in this CD had to be totally updated from other mediums. I
mentioned having to get the CLONE songs off of vinyl. The Such tapes
had to be baked and transferred to digital files so John could
totally re-mix everything on pro-tools. Two songs had to be taken
from old cassette recordings. The only Fags track on the CD almost
didn't make it. The song "Lock You Up" was recorded live in
a studio in New York City in about 1985. It's a killer song and the
recording really shows everything that made a live Fags show
exciting. Chuck's singing is outrageous. Paul Solger's guitar is
muted but it’s really eerie and very cool. But I could only find a
third generation cassette copy of the song. There was just no way I
could include it on the CD. It was practically unlistenable and it
almost made me cry. One day a month or so ago I went to see producer
Jack Endino at his house. At lunch I told him I was upset that I
wouldn't be able to include the only song The Fags had ever recorded
in a studio. Jack had never worked with Chuck or with The Fags in the
studio, but when we got back to his house he walked upstairs and came
back down in about 30 seconds. He handed me a master tape he had put
together for a cassette compilation Daniel House at C/Z records had
put out years ago. The first track was "Lock You Up" by The
Fags. I almost peed myself
PUNK
GLOBE:
Chuck was so
lucky to have had you in his life and all of his fans should be so
grateful to you as well.
DENNIS:I
think if you were to ask anyone who ever met Chuck they would tell
you how lucky *they* were to have met him. At the time Chuck or The
Fags were working in Seattle anybody who was a fan was also likely to
be a friend. Chuck had an incredibly wide circle of friends and he
was always ready to become friendly with anyone who was real. If you
weren't a direct friend of Chuck's he made you feel as though it was
OK to say hello or talk to him. Most of his fans knew him well enough
to say hello and I don't think he really saw any difference between
who was a friend and who was a fan. I think I'm much more grateful
that I knew him.
Even today I learn lessons from having known him.
The only thing his fans should be grateful to me for is that I have
the time and the means to finally get these recordings out. The
exciting thing about this project is that if this music would have
been released a few years ago nobody but his friends would have been
interested. But now there's a surge of interest in early American
punk in general and in this case a real interest in pre-grunge
Seattle artists. The goal in releasing this collection is not only to
give Chuck's fans a chance to have a piece of history. It's also
about telling a story about a specific time and a path. It's about
the way AIDS decimated so much of our lives...even us who are
living...as well as the uniquely gifted it took away from us. And
happily it's about all of us who are still here and able to look back
at all the crazy shit we've been through and celebrate every good and
bad part of it. Hopefully we can share all of that with people who
weren't even alive when Chuck was singing
PUNK
GLOBE:
Can you tell
us about your involvement with another early Seattle based band the
Fags?
DENNIS:
Well, there was no Fags without Chuck. The two are intertwined. My
friendship with Chuck was my connection with The Fags. I produced a
couple of shows with them, but mostly I was a friend. They’ve
always relied on a network of friends rather than any formal
relationships. In fact it’s only been in the past 6 months that
I’ve ever had any kind of “business” relationship with them.
I’ve just been part of the network of friends that The Fags and a
lot of artists and musicians had in those days. That network is still
intact. Most of the folks from that network are still friends and
still work with each other. The only difference is that now the
network is bigger and we all have better toys to play with.
The
Fags will be doing a reunion show at the Upchuck CD release party. It
will be the first time they have played publicly as The Fags since
Chuck died. But they never would have done it if it weren't for the
fact that everybody knows that Chuck is going to be there in the
spirit and the joy he left in so many people. When about 500 people
who's lives were affected by knowing Chuck get together in one place
the whole building might lift-off. The Fags are all still
working as musicians and artists. Ben Ireland is drumming in Sky
Cries Mary. Barb Ireland has worked as a film-maker and doing lots of
live and studio work. Right now she's doing a Hank Williams tribute
thing with Stone Gossard. Dahny Raphael is raising his kids and still
painting. That and poetry have always been his first loves. Of course
there's Paul Solger. He has had a few really rough years with cancer.
Paul is a legend in his own right. It's ironic that Paul is most well
known for his work in Solger, and The Fartz. But he spent much more
time working in The Fags. I think he's influenced so
many kids
with his hardcore stuff, but there's no doubt that his best work has
been with The Fags. I can’t say enough about Paul Solger as a
musician and as a really good guy.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Do you have
plans to release anything with them as well?
DENNIS:
The Fags have been planning to put out a DVD and a CD release for
awhile. I'd love to do more stuff with them. When the Upchuck release
gets up and running then it's likely that I'll approach them about
something. Whether they want to work with me is another matter. I can
be a pain in the ass to work!
PUNK
GLOBE:
Any other
special surprises you have in store for the party?
DENNIS:
We've
got plenty of
surprises that I'm not even going to hint at. I can say that a
certain icon of the San Francisco and Los Angeles scene will be
hosting the party. I can say a lot of celebs are going to be there,
not to show off, but to pay their respects and celebrate Chuck's
contributions.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Can you give
the readers an web address or My Space address for The UPCHUCK CD,
The Fags and your Production Company?
DENNIS:
CD's
will be
available through the cooler retail stores that I hope you're all
still buying CD's from. There are so few left, and they are not going
to be around much longer. Sub Pop are distributing our CDs so
wherever you find their CDs you ‘ll be able to find ours. Or
you can order CDs through our website: www.dadastic.com.
We have digital downloads there, but you can also find the release at
all the usual online download places. We’re available at just about
every commercial download site in the world! As a last resort go
ahead and order it through Amazon. If you want to learn more about
Upchuck or The Fags you can check out their pages at
www.myspace.com/charlesgarish
for Upchuck and www.myspace.com/upchuckandthefags
for The Fags.
PUNK
GLOBE:
For the
upcoming UPCHUCK CD Release Party show in September is there anyway
fans can get advance tickets...
DENNIS:
Yes. Advance tickets will be available online through Brown Bag
Tickets at: http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/42599. Advance tickets are $20,
all paid admissions get a free free CD. BTW, I want to add
that Brown Bag Tickets are really a great outlet. They don’t charge
outrageous, phony “convenience fees.” They’re perfect for band
and clubs to sell their tickets to the fans.
PUNK
GLOBE:
Thanks so
much for the interview Dennis! Do you have any parting words that you
may have for our readers?
DENNIS:
I should say that Chuck's royalties are being put into a trust to be
distributed to AIDS charities. Chuck and alot of other folks who
suffered from AIDS in the 1980's couldn't have gotten by without the
hard work and dedication of people who went out of the way to fill
the gap the government left in caring for people living with AIDS.
Things are so incredibly better now....at least in the United States.
It's still no fun living with AIDS, but medication and attitudes are
much better nowadays. But people living with AIDS in the Third Word
are in desperate shape. They don't have access to the same kind of
meds that allow people with AIDS in the west to live for decades.
Many are still neglected and left in poverty and horrible conditions.
We’ve gotten pretty good at caring for Americans. Chuck's
royalties will go to '46664' the organization Nelson Mandela set up
to help relieve the suffering of Africans living with AIDS.
Thanks
so much for the great interview Dennis. Hey all you Readers in the
Seattle area come to the party on September 27 at The Little Red
Studio located at 750 Harrison Street... I'll see you there!